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	<title>Anthropology and Environment Society &#187; bureaucracy</title>
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		<title>Cloaking, not Bleaching: the Back Story from Inside Bureaucracy</title>
		<link>http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/cloaking-not-bleaching/</link>
		<comments>http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/cloaking-not-bleaching/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 12:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Noah Theriault</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Engagement Blog]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[biodiversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bureaucracy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[conservation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[consultancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[development]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[engagement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[United States]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[USAID]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/?p=1274</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...good bureaucracies do not bleach out local context. Instead, they create big, simplified umbrellas that cloak the complex, dynamic range of local circumstances and thereby give the staff of government bureaucracies the space to address local circumstances despite changes in political direction.   I base this assertion on twenty-five years’ experience working with USAID, and on the literature on good governance. <a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/cloaking-not-bleaching/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a>]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>By </i><i><a href="https://www.iucn.org/about/union/commissions/ceesp/ceesp_about/ceesp_bio_all/ceesp_bio_alcorn.cfm" target="_blank">Janis Bristol Alcorn</a></i></p>
<blockquote><p>“&#8230; <i>In other words, the way that bureaucracies work is by bleaching out local context and coming up with big simplifications</i>.”   – <a href="http://anthro.ucsc.edu/faculty/singleton.php?&amp;singleton=true&amp;cruz_id=amathews" target="_blank">Andrew Mathews</a>, as quoted in his January 2013 <a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/mathews-interview/" target="_blank">interview with ENGAGEMENT</a></p></blockquote>
<p>I would counter by positing that good bureaucracies do not bleach out local context. Instead, they create big, simplified umbrellas that cloak the complex, dynamic range of local circumstances and thereby give the staff of government bureaucracies the space to address local circumstances despite changes in political direction.   I base this assertion on twenty-five years’ experience working with USAID, and on the literature on good governance.</p>
<div id="attachment_1275" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 232px"><a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/cloaking-not-bleaching/alcorn-photo3/" rel="attachment wp-att-1275"><img class=" wp-image-1275 " alt="Dr. Alcorn at work in Kyrgyzstan" src="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/wp-content/uploads/alcorn-photo3.jpg" width="222" height="296" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Dr. Alcorn at work in Kyrgyzstan</p></div>
<p>I came to Washington DC in 1988 to serve as an <a href="http://fellowships.aaas.org/02_Areas/02_index.shtml" target="_blank">American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) Diplomacy Fellow</a> at the <a href="http://www.usaid.gov/" target="_blank">USAID</a> (the U.S. Agency for International Development).  AAAS Fellowships offer scientists an opportunity to apply their knowledge to policy development.  And, in my case, the Fellowship served as a passport to get inside the State Department building, where USAID was then housed.  Once I had my ID pass and was inside the agency, I was often asked by USAID staff why the AAA had Fellows working in USAID.  (They were confusing AAAS with the American <i>Automobile</i> Association, not the American Anthropological Association.)   The AAA is an all-American organization, trusted by everyone, so AAA unknowingly gave me legitimacy to listen in on the internal workings of part of this federal bureaucracy.  And thus I became a “participant observer” inside USAID for two years, learning the language (acronyms) and customs during the first six months, and then becoming an active member of this society.</p>
<p>At the outset, AAAS sent us new Fellows to an intensive three weeks of in-depth orientations and briefings on the institutions that comprise Washington—from Congress to NASA, from the White House to the State Department, from the Pentagon to the Smithsonian.  One briefing stands out in my mind.   The presenter showed us a graph. On one axis was the level of knowledge about a topic, and on the other axis was the level of political attention given to the topic.   These variables were inversely related. The more that is known about a topic, the less political attention it gets.</p>
<p>I was given a position as Advisor to the Bureau for Asia and the Near East, in the office of Energy and Natural Resources.   My first assignment was managing an infamous reforestation project in Nepal—created by a Congressional earmark to ship poplar saplings from a constituent’s nursery in Oregon. Nepal has high levels of poverty, not to mention its own native poplars, so saplings weren’t high on the Nepali list for foreign aid.    My immediate supervisor, a social forester, advised me not to talk too much about this project.  Nepal simply was not a priority country.  He also pointed out that 80% of US foreign aid was in the form of “economic support funds”—checks written to Egypt and Israel—so Nepal was actually near the bottom of the remaining 20% of the budget described as “development assistance.”</p>
<p>Nevertheless, as an actor within this bureaucracy, my supervisor did his best to leverage the reforestation project into something that did more than airlift poplars from Oregon. He worked around the edges to provide assistance that was appreciated in Nepal—and then he threw away all the records of the project when he was transferred to another assignment.  When I saw him dumping out the files, I asked him whether we didn’t need to keep records of what had been done.  He said no, that it was better for the agency not to keep such records.   And thus I learned how dedicated people inside a bureaucracy can use those big, simplified umbrellas to fulfill a professional mission and address local concerns, even when the paperwork and politics push in a different direction.</p>
<p>I entered USAID during the transition from President Reagan to President George H.W. Bush.  There was a flurry of activity creating documents for “transition teams.” In effect, those documents served as ideologically-aligned, simplified umbrellas that shielded the professional, non-ideological work of the agency.   Again, these big simplifications did not bleach out local complexities, but rather covered for them.  During the transition, I discovered that agencies like USAID are run by political appointees, and I watched as President Bush inserted his people from the top down to the level of office director.   Our new office director met individually with each of his sixty-two person staff.  When he met me, the “AAA representative,” he said he was pleased that American business had a representative interested in “environment” inside USAID. Then he said that I needed to understand one thing: USAID was to do nothing to stop pollution. In fact, he continued, we should encourage it because US companies have the &#8220;predominant capability&#8221; in technologies for cleaning up pollution.</p>
<p>Over the first year, this appointee made it his personal agenda to remove biodiversity conservation from USAID’s mission by adding a “screen” that would stop all biodiversity-related activities and projects.  He believed that biodiversity was a fad whose time had passed, and he wanted to test the political power behind it.  Instead, he ended up being removed from his post because a memo promoting his anti-biodiversity plan was leaked. His memo shamed the administration and strengthened the political power of biodiversity conservation.  At his going-away party, we gave him a piece of window screen with paper cutouts of birds and rabbits taped to it along with a card that read, “We wanted you to have this screen, through which birds and bunnies cannot get.”  He laughed.</p>
<div id="attachment_1276" class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 365px"><a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/cloaking-not-bleaching/alcorn-photo5/" rel="attachment wp-att-1276"><img class="wp-image-1276  " alt="Dr. Alcorn at work in Bolivia" src="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/wp-content/uploads/alcorn-photo5.jpg" width="355" height="239" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Dr. Alcorn at work in Bolivia</p></div>
<p>After my Fellowship ended in 1990, I had learned the language and culture well enough to be recommended for a new position in a USAID project.   During the 11 years I worked on that project, I again came to appreciate how those big simplified umbrellas can provide cover for dedicated agency staff and local context.   One case stands out.  Our project was able to work with black-listed NGOs in Indonesia because Jakarta had signed an agreement with Washington exempting USAID-funded projects from review against the Suharto government’s black list.  Nonetheless, the project needed its $12 million budget authorized by Congress, and USAID staff knew there were powers who would not want our project authorized.  In the mid-1990s, the paperwork for our project was placed in a stack under a simple cover sheet, which listed a different project instead of the Indonesia project.  No one in Congress looked under the cover sheet to see the details, and Congressional authorization was given on the basis of the umbrella cover memo.  After authorization, Congressional anger was impotent.</p>
<p>Several years later, that multi-million dollar project gave a $15,000 grant to a small NGO. This small NGO was inviting organizations from across Indonesia to a workshop in a village whose river was being heavily polluted by an American mining operation. Women in the village claimed that the pollution was damaging their vaginas because they had to stand in the polluted river to wash clothes and bathe.   Just before the workshop was to occur, the US Ambassador made a phone call directly to the NGO’s staff and instructed them to cancel it. It was inappropriate for an Ambassador to intervene in this way, and we took action to prevent it from becoming a precedent that could limit all future work.  Armed with staff knowledge of Congressional schedules, our allies were able to meet with concerned Members of Congress in both parties and build support for the workshop. But even this was not enough.  Higher levels of power were mobilized by the mining interests.  Only after an ally convinced Vice President Al Gore to step in did the mining interests back down and the workshop proceed.</p>
<p>None of this would have been possible without the big, simplified umbrellas of bureaucracy.  Without the opportunities I have had to be a participant observer within bureaucracies that use these umbrellas, I would not have understood how to play on the insiders’ team.  When our Indonesia project ended, a senior USAID official said to me, “this was the best project USAID ever did in my entire career &#8230; and it will never do another one like it.”  The project’s legacy continues more than a decade after it ended in 2001, in the good relations and capacity built among over 150 NGOs and the birth of the indigenous peoples’ federation of Indonesia. The project illustrates, with apologies to James Scott, how career staff in this bureaucracy made judicious and effective use of the “umbrellas of the weak” to achieve positive outcomes despite political obstacles.</p>
<div id="attachment_1277" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 609px"><a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/cloaking-not-bleaching/alcorn-photo2/" rel="attachment wp-att-1277"><img class=" wp-image-1277     " alt="March at the founding of the indigenous federation in Indonesia." src="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/wp-content/uploads/alcorn-photo2.jpg" width="599" height="272" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">March at the founding of the indigenous federation in Indonesia.</p></div>
<p>Please see the related references below, including Judith Tendler’s classic book on how giving bureaucrats the freedom to make decisions contributes to good governance and good government.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.iucn.org/about/union/commissions/ceesp/ceesp_about/ceesp_bio_all/ceesp_bio_alcorn.cfm" target="_blank"><i>Janis Bristol Alcorn</i></a><i> holds a doctorate in botany and anthropology from the University of Texas and has served as President of the Anthropology &amp; Environment Society.  She currently works as the Deputy Director for Social and Environmental Soundness in a USAID-funded project based in Washington, DC.  From 1988-1990, she was an AAAS Fellow in USAID.  From 1991-2001, she was the Asia Director for the Biodiversity Support Program at WWF.  Since 2002, Dr. Alcorn has worked as a consultant for private foundations, NGOs, and USAID projects.  Her current engagements also include serving as Chair of the Theme on Governance, Equity, and Rights with the IUCN Commission on Environmental, Economic, and Social Policy and as Adjunct Professor in the University of Manitoba’s Natural Resources Institute. </i></p>
<p>Related references:</p>
<p>Alcorn, J.B., John Bamba, Stefanus Masiun, Ita Natalia, and Antoinette Royo (2003)  <a href="http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511541957&amp;cid=CBO9780511541957A026" target="_blank">Keeping ecological resilience afloat in cross-scale turbulence:  An Indigenous social movement navigates change in Indonesia</a>. Pages 299-327 in C.Folkes, F.Berkes &amp; J.Colding, eds, Navigating Nature’s Dynamics, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge,UK.</p>
<p>Tendler, Judith (1997) <a href="http://books.google.com/books/about/Good_Government_in_the_Tropics.html?id=GzUPAAAAYAAJ" target="_blank"><i>Good Government in the Tropics</i></a>. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press.</p>
<p>Tendler identifies five central themes connecting the successes she identifies:</p>
<p>(1) Government workers demonstrated an unusual dedication to their jobs. (2) The government made efforts to instill a sense of mission in the workers. (3) Workers were more flexible and responded to the perceived demands of the clients. (4) Both workmanship pride and increased community pressures limited corruption and malfeasance. (5) A three way dynamic between the state government (central government), local government and civil society did not fit the stereotypical roles in terms of building civil society.</p>
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		<title>Andrew Mathews on forestry, bureaucracy, and engaged scholarship</title>
		<link>http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/mathews-interview/</link>
		<comments>http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/mathews-interview/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Noah Theriault</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Engagement Blog]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bureaucracy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[conservation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[engagement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[forestry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[interview]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mexico]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/?p=1081</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ENGAGEMENT editor Rebecca Garvoille recently caught up with Andrew S. Mathews, Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University of California, Santa Cruz, to discuss his recent book, Instituting Nature: Authority, Expertise, and Power in Mexican Forests (2011, MIT Press), and its broader contributions to forest policy and socio-environmental justice debates in Mexico. This interview is the third installment in an ENGAGEMENT series exploring how environmental-anthropological book projects inspire meaningful engagements in study sites across the globe. <a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/mathews-interview/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a>]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: left;"><em><a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/mathews-interview/mathews_instituting-nature/" rel="attachment wp-att-1083"><img class=" wp-image-1083 alignright" alt="Mathews_Instituting Nature" src="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/wp-content/uploads/Mathews_Instituting-Nature.jpg" width="168" height="252" /></a>ENGAGEMENT editor Rebecca Garvoille recently caught up with </em><a href="http://anthro.ucsc.edu/faculty/singleton.php?&amp;singleton=true&amp;cruz_id=amathews" target="_blank"><i>Andrew S. Mathews</i></a><em>, Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University of California, Santa Cruz, to discuss his recent book, </em><i><a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/instituting-nature" target="_blank">Instituting Nature: Authority, Expertise, and Power in Mexican Forests</a> </i><em>(2011, MIT Press), and its broader contributions to forest policy and socio-environmental justice debates in Mexico. This interview is the third installment in an ENGAGEMENT series exploring how environmental-anthropological book projects inspire meaningful engagements in study sites across the globe.</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<div id="attachment_1082" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 190px"><a href="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/index.php/mathews-interview/amathews/" rel="attachment wp-att-1082"><img class=" wp-image-1082" alt="Andrew S. Mathews" src="http://www.aaanet.org/sections/ae/wp-content/uploads/amathews.jpg" width="180" height="180" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Andrew S. Mathews</p></div>
<p><b>RG</b>:<strong> First, for readers who might not be familiar with it, what&#8217;s the theme of your new book?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: Well, it looks at how forestry—as an internationally circulating science of how to manage forests, extract resources from them, and bring them into the future—arrived in Mexico in the early twentieth century, and how it encountered landscapes and indigenous people in Mexico.  I focus particularly on a certain part of Mexico, the southeastern state of Oaxaca, with the idea that this could give some insight into how the science of forestry got incorporated into how people understand forests and then how indigenous people learned about forestry and reworked it and ultimately came to turn it back in some measure against the authority of the state.  So it’s about the domestication of a globally traveling science and how that science modified landscapes, and how the science of forestry turns out very surprisingly not to be a very helpful ally for state intervention.  Forestry turned out to be a much less hegemonic or friendly tool for powerful people than we might assume it to be.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>:  <strong>How does your book address broader questions in environmental anthropology?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: There were a number of different things that I wanted to do in this book.  One of them was that I had been reading the classic political ecology when I went to the field, and I was interested in questions of control over landscapes and resources.  Nevertheless, I felt that the ecological aspect of a bunch of political ecology hadn’t been developed as much as I would have liked it to be.  And of particular concern to me was this idea that different kinds of politics come into being in relation to ecologies.  So the ecology of pine forests and pine-oak forests in Oaxaca actually engendered particular forms of politics.  This inspired me to pay attention to non-humans as actors who actually produce different kinds of politics.  So that was one part.  The second part came when I was writing the book, when I really became aware of work in science studies on political culture and epistemic culture and how these two relate.  And I found this wonderfully fruitful set of connections between classic work on state-making and politics and Mexican anthropology, and much more recent work in science-and-technology studies which engages with the ways in which knowledge is constituted in different societies.  And that combination worked really well for me because I could focus very closely on how the Mexican forestry bureaucracy worked and how it had to respond to multiple audiences and how, rather than being this solid structure or authoritative agency, it was really much more timid and hesitant and episodic and fragmentary than I thought it was going to be. I thought that bureaucracy was this big thing that did things in the world, and the longer I work on it the more I’ve come to realize it’s much more of a rather theatrical performance where many of the people involved are only partly convinced of the whole business.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>:<strong> Your work draws on political ecology. How do you see political ecology intersecting with the concerns of environmental anthropologists?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: I actually don’t think of myself as being a political ecologist.  To me political ecology is one part of the vast range of work by geographers and historians and anthropologists and science-and-technology studies people who are interested in the ways humans and non-humans collaborate to make worlds.  I actually draw upon many domains of scholarship for my work. For instance, I read environmental history quite seriously, partly because I love telling stories about landscape change, partly because history is a wonderful method for sliding through or past apparently authoritative states.  And what I mean by that is that government institutions claim to be a certain thing that exists in time and to be very enduring, very solid.  But when you look at them over a long period of time they turn out not to be anything like that.  And somehow following the history of, say, pine forests or a landscape and how it slips past and only partly connects with human efforts to control it really helps you understand what kinds of affordances landscapes have for political projects, what kinds of weaknesses states have for controlling landscapes, how they engage or don’t engage, how they slip past each other on many occasions.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>:<strong> When you were doing research for your book, how did you engage with different communities&#8212;for example, with local people, with scientists, with other scholars?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: That’s a great question.  Well, in some measure, I had different personas.  First of all, I’ll start with the indigenous communities in the Sierra Juárez.  I ended up working mainly in the Ixtlán de Juárez, although I did go to some other places also.  And I was really working with the forestry technicians and foresters—I actually went into the field with them a lot.  So clearly my identity was tied in with them.  Therefore, I know that people who were wary of them were probably also wary of me.  And that just goes with the terrain of doing fieldwork in a small town.  But I had of course to get permission from the indigenous community leaders to be there.  So I did quite a lot of work around communicating what I was doing, including a poster that I gave to people, and I gave a presentation toward the end of my time there.  So I engaged in quite a lot of communication with local people. I told them I’m writing the history of the forest here, and people really understood that as being a sensible project and something they could make sense of.  I thought that was helpful.</p>
<p>Working with forestry officials was kind of different, partly because I was then at the Yale School of Forestry, and I’m actually trained as a forester.  I was situated between forestry and anthropology.  So my identity as a forester was extremely helpful in making initial contacts within government agencies.  After that it really has a lot to do with personal chemistry and who finds your work interesting.  A number of forestry officials were themselves extremely troubled about their own institution, so they actually were excited to talk to somebody whom they could tell their stories of discomfort and to share that with me as a fellow forester who actually understood the technical terms. So indeed my identity as a forester was very helpful in allowing me to have certain kinds of conversations with forestry officials.</p>
<p>And finally there was sort of a middle ground of environmental NGOs and environmental activists, who were intermediaries between the state and indigenous communities.  With them it was a pretty comfortable fit because most of them were around my age, it seemed like, though some were a little older.  And they were all also trying to do some of the same kind of work that I was doing, which was traveling between indigenous communities in forests and bureaucracies in town.  So there were some similar kinds of pilgrimages that we were making in a way.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>: <strong>How did your fieldwork spark lasting collaborations or engagements in your study site?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: One of the things I tried do was to go back in 2008-2009.  For various reasons, it’s been a bit hard for me to travel back. And the most surprising part of it for me actually is that… well, I have very personal connections with people I worked with in Sierra Juárez, which I haven’t chosen to write about in many ways but which matter a great deal to me.  With forestry officials, when I returned in 2008-2009, they were just happy to see that I was carrying on, doing my work, and they were happy that the book was coming out.  I have one Spanish language article, where I say some critical things about the Mexican Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources (SEMARNAT), and I thought they would be upset about it.  But actually they were really happy about it.  So their attitude has been much more of, “we’re glad that someone is writing about our world” rather than worrying that I’m saying something impolite.  That was a very pleasant surprise. My more recent work has actually been looking at how climate change and forests are getting packaged together, and quite a few of the people involved in that world were working in forests when I was working there for my long-term fieldwork. So it turns out that personal connections are tremendously important for ongoing research relationships.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>: <strong>You mentioned that some of the forestry officials were receptive to your critique.   Have you had any further engagements with them?  For example, have they invited you to speak?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: Yes, actually.  There was a conference on pulling together all the research on Oaxaca’s forests last spring (put together by <a href="http://www2.fiu.edu/~brayd/" target="_blank">David Bray</a> at FIU), and there were a lot of people from indigenous communities there.  I talked about a classic environmental anthropology point, which I made in a forthright way by defining forests in Oaxaca as a product of histories of fire and of agricultural abandonment.  Therefore, I argued, these were deeply anthropogenic forests.  And the thing that really struck me was how this point resonated with the indigenous activists and community leaders in the audience.  I was really happy about this is turning out to be helpful.  In fact, that’s coming out in a conference proceedings&#8230;  So there are these ongoing relationships with what I call the environmental practitioner-activist community in Oaxaca.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>: <strong>What is the key message or key point that you hope people take away from reading your book?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: One key point would be that ethnographically we find that knowledge bureaucracies like the Mexican Forest Service (but there are many, many others around the world) are usually very fragmented, they’re often uncertain, they have to build alliances with a whole set of different actors: officials above, critics, publics, all kinds of clients; and that this has really huge effects for what kinds of things they know and don’t know.  The kinds of things that become official knowledge about forests in the Mexico case depend very greatly upon the nitty-gritty details of encounters between officials and non-officials.  So, the argument I make is really that it turns out that if you’re going to know something about what happens in distant forests you have to have very good alliances with the indigenous communities who live there.  Which is kind of the opposite of much of the argument that you might hear about how official knowledge gets made.  It’s not this sort of dominating gaze of the state.  It’s rather this state that has to find allies and get them to sign on for a certain way of seeing the world.  And I think it’s rather contrary to much of what we think about states.  And I hope that my argument based on my fieldwork in Mexico will be a kind of invitation for other people who work on conservation or climate change or many other environmental fields to think about how their institutions also might have these similar kinds of processes taking place.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>: <strong>What are the broader contributions of your book to public and policy discussions about environmental conservation projects?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: I think that there is some literature in environmental anthropology which paints conservation institutions as authoritative bad guys. I think that this is partially true, but I also think it greatly overstates how powerful these institutions are.  Instead of looking at discourses of conservation, we need to pay attention to the nitty-gritty detail of who is doing conservation management—how many people, where they are, what they’re doing, how often they’re there.  Because it seems to me that much conservation is so fragile and episodic that it just can’t possibly be this authoritative actor that some versions claim it to be.  And that’s just a question of empirical method.  If you actually trace institutions and careers and where people are, you come up with a very different account of conservation, for example, than if you trace conservation discourse in official documents, which is absolutely valuable, but needs to be supplemented with this who-what-where-when part of conservation.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>: <strong>What would you say are the broader contributions of your book to public and policy discussion about social and environmental justice?</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: Anthropologists have long been saying, “look, there’s all of this important local detail that matters: local ecological knowledge, indigenous knowledge about forests, indigenous ways of understanding the world.”  And they say, “what happens when outside actors like conservation institutions or government policies come in is that they don’t pay attention to these details.”  And it’s absolutely true that this is the case.  However, this is exactly what any government official would tell you, or any conservation official.  In other words, the way that bureaucracies work is by bleaching out local context and coming up with big simplifications.  So we tend to get stuck in a situation of saying, “we see for the local against the power of the global or the outside.”  And I’ve kind of tried to invert that and say, “look, there are moments when details matter a great deal because how conservation gets done affects the careers and the stability of forest institutions or government officials.”  So I’ve tried to look for the back path, the ways in which humans and non-humans but especially publics affect the stability of these institutions because government officials will say, “well, we’re so sorry we can’t pay attention to details of what happens in your village, but that’s how it is.”  But if we tell them stories about how people like them lost their jobs because they didn’t pay attention to the details, then they’re interested.  So my long-term hope is really to say, “look, the details matter to people like you,” meaning officials, and maybe they’ll be receptive to that kind of argument.  Certainly in conversation, I think, they are receptive because most of them feel under enormous pressure.  They’re really stressed out. They have an agenda of twenty things they’re supposed to do, and they’re struggling with how to make sense of a very confusing landscape.  So we can cultivate our understanding of their predicament; maybe cultivate a little bit their fears of why their predicament is unstable; maybe make them a little more receptive to other ways of understanding the world.  This is actually what Sheila Jasanoff calls “technologies of humility,” which, I think, is not a bad metaphor.  Technology has to be created, but it has to be more humble and more willing to consider alternatives.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>: <strong>You were talking before about how your work is being read by forestry officials in a particular area of Mexico, in Oaxaca, where you work.  So it does sound like, in that sense, your work may be actively shaping the management of nature in your study site.</strong></p>
<p><b>AM</b>: I would say very modestly.  People are very busy.  They don’t necessarily have time to read the kinds of things that we write. I think it’s actually our job to write very simple, bold, one-page summaries of what we have to say.  We have to become more comfortable with the simplification of our work.  Because we have to tell stories that people can take away with them to explain the world to themselves.  For instance, towards the beginning of my book is this image of a person walking off a cliff as they’re blinded by a newspaper in their face.  I think that an image like that with a brief accompanying text about how it links to the lifeworlds of officials is worth a great deal.  The agenda of a bureaucrat is infinitely long, and they have to pick up which things from the agenda they can actually respond to.  So thinking of a really good story or image to anchor a really simple point we have to make is actually quite valuable. My hope is that the thing that will attract their attention is the sense that people like them have in the past suffered when they did not pay attention, that the kind of stuff we love—ethnographic detail—matters in certain ways to people like them.  Maybe that’s the hook.  I can’t say that I’ve managed to do this in huge ways, but that’s certainly my approach to trying to make anthropology meaningful and relevant to these kinds of actors.</p>
<p><b>RG</b>: <strong>That concludes our interview.  On behalf of ENGAGEMENT and its readers, thank you so much, Andrew S. Mathews, for your time and insight.</strong></p>
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